As a Software Engineer at Northern Trust, you are a critical architect of the digital infrastructure that powers global wealth management, asset servicing, and banking. Your work directly impacts how financial data is processed, secured, and delivered to institutional and private clients worldwide. You are not merely writing code; you are building resilient, scalable systems that maintain the trust of clients who rely on the firm’s stability and technological precision. This role requires a blend of technical depth and a strong sense of ownership. You will collaborate across cross-functional teams—including product managers, infrastructure engineers, and financial analysts—to translate complex business requirements into high-performance software. Whether you are working on internal financial platforms, cloud migration, or integrating AI-driven insights into existing workflows, your contributions are fundamental to maintaining the firm’s competitive edge in a fast-evolving fintech landscape.
Hackathon
reportedInitial technical assessment for campus or early-career roles.
What to demonstrate
- Initial technical assessment for campus or early-career roles
- Depth in System Design
How to prepare
- Answer aloud and timed: Explain the difference between REST APIs and GraphQL in a real-world project.
- Answer aloud and timed: How do you handle concurrency in a high-volume financial application?
Structured Interviews
reportedA series of interviews focusing on technical skills and cultural fit.
What to demonstrate
- A series of interviews focusing on technical skills and cultural fit
- Depth in System Design
How to prepare
- Answer aloud and timed: Can you explain the lifecycle of a Spring Boot application?
- Answer aloud and timed: What are the advantages of using Microservices versus a Monolithic architecture for a banking system?
Recruiter Screen
reportedInitial screening call with a recruiter for mid-to-senior level candidates.
What to demonstrate
- Initial screening call with a recruiter for mid-to-senior level candidates
- Depth in System Design
How to prepare
- Be able to walk your CV end to end in two minutes, and say why this company specifically.
- Have your salary expectations, notice period and location constraints ready, and ask for the rest of the loop in writing.
Technical Deep-Dives
reportedIn-depth technical interviews assessing specific skills and knowledge.
What to demonstrate
- In-depth technical interviews assessing specific skills and knowledge
- Depth in System Design
How to prepare
- Answer aloud and timed: How would you design a system to handle high-frequency currency data updates?
- Answer aloud and timed: Explain how you would ensure data consistency in a distributed database environment.
Final Leadership Round
reportedFinal interview focusing on leadership qualities and team alignment.
What to demonstrate
- Final interview focusing on leadership qualities and team alignment
- Depth in System Design
How to prepare
- Answer aloud and timed: How do you approach caching to improve application performance?
- Answer aloud and timed: Tell me about a time you had to explain a complex technical issue to a non-technical stakeholder.
PracHub editorial advice for the preparation topics above.
Review your resume
Be prepared to explain every line of your resume in detail. You will likely be asked to "walk through" a project you’ve listed.
Be honest about your skills
If you don't know an answer, it is better to explain how you would find the solution rather than guessing.
Prepare for the "Why Northern Trust?" question
Research the company’s role in the financial sector and show genuine interest in their commitment to client service and stability.
Master the STAR method
Use this for all behavioral questions to ensure your answers are concise and results-oriented.
Choose a category, try a prompt, then open its approach, worked solution or follow-up when you need it.
Find overlapping job attempts and peak concurrency from lease records
A day of job_run history yields about 50,000,000 attempt records: (job_run_id, job_type, attempt, started_at, finished_at which is NULL when the worker died, lease_expires_at). Leases expire on a clock, so a job that outran its lease ran twice. Produce (a) every job_run_id whose attempts overlapped in wall-clock time and (b) the peak number of simultaneously running attempts per job_type with the minute it occurred. Target O(n log n). State how you treat a NULL finished_at and what clock skew does to your answer.
Approach
- Define the interval before sorting anything: an attempt occupies [started_at, COALESCE(finished_at, lease_expires_at)). finished_at is observed and lease_expires_at is only a promise, so every attempt without a finish contributes an estimate and the whole result is a lower bound on overlap rather than an exact count.
- For peak concurrency, sweep: emit 2n endpoints, sort by (timestamp, kind) with ends ordered before starts at equal timestamps, then walk the sequence maintaining a counter per job_type and record each type's maximum with its timestamp. O(n log n) dominated by the sort, O(n) space, or O(1) extra if the sort is external and the walk streams.
- For overlap detection, do not compare attempts pairwise. A single global sort by (job_run_id, started_at) gives both the grouping and the order; within a group, keep the maximum end seen so far and report an overlap exactly when the next start is less than that running maximum, which is one linear pass after the sort.
- Half-open intervals matter and are easy to get wrong: with closed intervals an attempt ending at the same millisecond another begins reads as concurrency two, and across 50,000,000 records that artefact swamps the real signal.
Follow-up
- A handler is not idempotent and you have found 400 overlapping jobs. Which of them actually caused damage, and what would you query to find out?
- Peak concurrency for one job_type is 4 against a configured cap of 4. Is the cap working, or is the data hiding attempts that never started?
Track a rolling failure rate per destination for circuit decisions
The egress service delivers about 1,500 webhooks per second across roughly 40,000 destinations, each call bounded by a 10 second timeout. Maintain, per destination, the failure rate over the trailing 60 seconds so a caller can ask before dispatch whether the circuit should open. Attempts arrive as (destination_id, finished_at_ms, outcome). Requirement: amortised O(1) per attempt, with total memory bounded by the destination count rather than by traffic. Give the structure, its exact memory, and the rule that stops a destination with three attempts from opening a circuit.
Approach
- Name the exact-deque version and then reject it as the default. Holding timestamps and advancing a tail pointer past anything older than now minus 60 seconds is a correct two-pointer window at amortised O(1) per attempt, but its memory tracks in-window traffic, so one destination in a retry storm holds hundreds of thousands of entries while thousands of quiet destinations hold none.
- Use a ring of 60 one-second buckets per destination, each bucket a pair of counters for attempts and failures. On an attempt, advance the ring by the elapsed whole seconds, zeroing at most min(elapsed, 60) buckets, then increment the head. That is amortised O(1) with a fixed footprint per destination.
- State the footprint: 60 buckets times two 4-byte counters is 480 bytes of payload per destination, so 40,000 destinations is roughly 20 to 25 MB with per-entry overhead, bounded by the catalogue rather than by the rate. The cost is granularity, since the oldest bucket ages out in whole seconds, which is far tighter than the decision needs.
- Require a minimum sample before the circuit may open. A destination with three attempts and three failures reads as 100 percent and is not evidence; a floor of roughly 20 attempts in the window makes the ratio meaningful, and below that floor use a run of consecutive failures as the trigger instead.
Follow-up
- The fleet is 30 instances and each sees roughly a thirtieth of a destination's traffic. Where does the rate actually live, and what does a per-instance answer get wrong?
- A destination answers in 9.5 seconds and succeeds. It is not failing but it is consuming your per-destination concurrency. What signal should open the circuit here?
Archive a resource graph without breaking live references or recursing
Resources reference other resources within a tenant; for the largest tenant the reference table holds up to 2,000,000 nodes and 8,000,000 edges. Archiving a resource must archive everything reachable from it that nothing outside the set still references, refuse when a live external referrer exists, and terminate when references form cycles, which they legitimately do. Produce the archive order and the refusal list, targeting O(V+E). Say what stops the traversal crossing a tenant boundary, and why recursion is the wrong control structure at this size.
Approach
- Load the subgraph with the tenant predicate on both endpoints of the edge, not only on the side you started from. Scoping the left table alone is the classic cross-tenant leak: one mis-entered edge then pulls another tenant's resources into the traversal and, worse, into the archive.
- Traverse iteratively with an explicit stack. A 2,000,000-node graph can hold a chain deep enough to exhaust a native stack in the low tens of thousands of frames, and that failure is a process crash rather than an error you can return.
- Treat cycles as data rather than corruption: compute strongly connected components with Tarjan in O(V+E) using its own explicit stack, then condense. The condensation is a DAG, so a topological order over it gives the archive order, and every member of a component archives in one transaction because no order within a cycle is valid.
- Decide refusals with reverse edges. A candidate is archivable only if every in-edge originates inside the candidate set, so build the transpose or count in-degrees restricted to the visited set, and emit each blocked resource with the id of the external referrer, which is the only part of the answer an operator can act on.
Follow-up
- The graph is read in one query and the archive writes a minute later. What can change in between, and how do you make the write safe?
- The candidate set is 400,000 resources. Is that one transaction, and if not, what does a half-finished archive look like to a reader?
Stop tag and share joins from fanning out a page
resource_tag is (resource_id, tag_id) with PK (resource_id, tag_id); resource_share is (resource_id, shared_with_user_id, permission). The tagged-and-shared listing inner-joins resource to both, filters tenant_id, tag_id = ANY($2) and shared_with_user_id = $3, orders by updated_at DESC and takes 50. Pages come back with fewer than 50 distinct resources and the total in the header is far too high. Explain the row multiplication, rewrite both the page query and the count query so each is correct, and name the index each one needs. PostgreSQL 16.
Approach
- Do the arithmetic against the predicates that are actually there. An inner join emits one row per matching child row, and both joins are filtered: tag_id = ANY($2) admits only the requested tags, shared_with_user_id = $3 admits one user's share rows. So a resource holding three of the requested tags and shared with $3 once yields three rows, not one — the multiplier is its count of matching tags times its share rows for that single user, and that second factor is 1 unless the table admits duplicate (resource_id, shared_with_user_id) pairs. LIMIT 50 then limits rows rather than resources, and COUNT(*) counts pairs — the header is the product, not the population.
- Reject DISTINCT as the fix. It deduplicates after the product has been built, so the planner must materialise and sort the fanned-out set before the LIMIT can apply, and it leaves any SUM or AVG in the same select list wrong.
- Rewrite both filters as semi-joins, keeping resource as the only row source: AND EXISTS (SELECT 1 FROM resource_tag rt WHERE rt.resource_id = r.resource_id AND rt.tag_id = ANY($2)) and the same shape against resource_share. A semi-join stops at the first match per resource and preserves the driving index order, so ORDER BY updated_at DESC, resource_id DESC LIMIT 50 still stops after 50 rows.
- Count with the same predicates and no join at all: SELECT count(*) FROM resource r WHERE r.tenant_id = $1 AND r.status = 'active' AND EXISTS (...) AND EXISTS (...). Nothing multiplies a resource, so the number is the population.
Follow-up
- The filter changes from 'any of these tags' to 'all of these tags'. Rewrite it and state what it costs relative to the ANY form.
- A resource can be shared with the same user twice under different permissions. Does your count change, and should it?
Find version gaps and relay lag with window functions
outbox_event holds event_id, aggregate_type, aggregate_id, aggregate_version, event_type, payload, status ('pending','published','dead'), attempts, created_at, published_at. A projection is missing rows and you must decide whether the relay skipped events or the consumer dropped them. Write three queries over the last seven days: one listing every aggregate_id whose published aggregate_version sequence has a hole, one giving per-day counts with a running total, and one returning the newest published event per aggregate. For each, say where the window function is evaluated relative to WHERE and LIMIT. PostgreSQL 16.
Approach
- Gaps: compute lead(aggregate_version) OVER (PARTITION BY aggregate_id ORDER BY aggregate_version) in a subquery, then filter next_version <> aggregate_version + 1 in the outer query. Window functions are evaluated after WHERE, GROUP BY and HAVING and before the outer ORDER BY and LIMIT, so the predicate cannot sit in the same WHERE clause and PostgreSQL 16 has no QUALIFY.
- Say what the seven-day filter does to the answer: it truncates every partition, so the first row per aggregate has no predecessor inside the window and a hole spanning the boundary is invisible. Widen the window, or join to resource.version as the authority for the true maximum.
- Running total: SELECT date_trunc('day', created_at) AS d, count() AS n, sum(count()) OVER (ORDER BY date_trunc('day', created_at) ROWS UNBOUNDED PRECEDING). An aggregate inside a window call is legal because grouping runs before windowing. The grouping key is unique per row here so ROWS and RANGE agree, but write the frame anyway — over ungrouped rows with tied timestamps the default RANGE frame pulls in every peer row and the total jumps.
- Newest per aggregate: DISTINCT ON (aggregate_id) ... ORDER BY aggregate_id, aggregate_version DESC is the cheap PostgreSQL-only form when an index matches that order; row_number() OVER (PARTITION BY aggregate_id ORDER BY aggregate_version DESC) = 1 is the portable form and needs a subquery for the same evaluation-order reason as the gap query.
Follow-up
- Relay failover redelivers events. Does a duplicate break the gap query, and how would you detect one from this table alone?
- Turn the gap check into a continuous monitor rather than a query someone runs after an incident. What does it watch?
Explain the difference between REST APIs and GraphQL in a real-world project.
Explain the difference between REST APIs and GraphQL in a real-world project.
Approach
- Say who the caller is and what they do when the call fails halfway.
- Define the identity of a request so a retry cannot double-apply it.
- Separate accepted, pending, failed and confirmed; they are different facts.
- Design the error taxonomy before the success shape; callers branch on it.
Follow-up
- What happens if the caller retries after a timeout?
- How does a client discover it is on an old version of this contract?
Can you explain the lifecycle of a Spring Boot application?
Can you explain the lifecycle of a Spring Boot application?
Approach
- Clarify what is being asked and what a complete answer contains.
- State your assumptions explicitly before working the problem.
- Say what you would check first and why it is the highest-information step.
- Work from the requirement backwards to the design.
Follow-up
- What assumption would you test first?
- How would you know your answer was wrong?
What are the advantages of using Microservices versus a Monolithic architecture for a banking system?
What are the advantages of using Microservices versus a Monolithic architecture for a banking system?
Approach
- Fix the scope first: who calls this, how often, and what they do when it fails.
- Name the read and write paths separately; they rarely have the same bottleneck.
- Choose a partition key and say what query it makes expensive.
- State the consistency you need, and where you are willing to be stale.
Follow-up
- What breaks first when traffic grows ten times?
- How does this behave when that dependency is down for an hour?
Design a Parking Lot system or a similar resource-management application (LLD).
Design a Parking Lot system or a similar resource-management application (LLD).
Approach
- Fix the scope first: who calls this, how often, and what they do when it fails.
- Name the read and write paths separately; they rarely have the same bottleneck.
- Choose a partition key and say what query it makes expensive.
- State the consistency you need, and where you are willing to be stale.
Follow-up
- What breaks first when traffic grows ten times?
- How does this behave when that dependency is down for an hour?
How would you design a system to handle high-frequency currency data updates?
How would you design a system to handle high-frequency currency data updates?
Approach
- Fix the scope first: who calls this, how often, and what they do when it fails.
- Name the read and write paths separately; they rarely have the same bottleneck.
- Choose a partition key and say what query it makes expensive.
- State the consistency you need, and where you are willing to be stale.
Follow-up
- What breaks first when traffic grows ten times?
- How does this behave when that dependency is down for an hour?
Explain how you would ensure data consistency in a distributed database environment.
Explain how you would ensure data consistency in a distributed database environment.
Approach
- Fix the scope first: who calls this, how often, and what they do when it fails.
- Name the read and write paths separately; they rarely have the same bottleneck.
- Choose a partition key and say what query it makes expensive.
- State the consistency you need, and where you are willing to be stale.
Follow-up
- What breaks first when traffic grows ten times?
- How does this behave when that dependency is down for an hour?
How do you approach caching to improve application performance?
How do you approach caching to improve application performance?
Approach
- Fix the scope first: who calls this, how often, and what they do when it fails.
- Name the read and write paths separately; they rarely have the same bottleneck.
- Choose a partition key and say what query it makes expensive.
- State the consistency you need, and where you are willing to be stale.
Follow-up
- What breaks first when traffic grows ten times?
- How does this behave when that dependency is down for an hour?
Every query on one table stalls for forty seconds mid-deploy
During a release on PostgreSQL, every query touching resource times out for about 40 seconds and then recovers with no intervention. The release ran one migration, ALTER TABLE resource ADD COLUMN archived_reason TEXT, and the migration log shows it completing in 6 ms. Unrelated tables showed no change in error rate. Explain how a 6 ms statement caused a 40-second stall, give the ordered checks you would run on a live system to confirm it, and give the migration procedure that prevents a repeat.
Approach
- Separate the statement's duration from the lock's duration. ADD COLUMN with no default is a catalogue-only change and genuinely runs in milliseconds, but it requires ACCESS EXCLUSIVE, and it cannot acquire that until every transaction already touching the table has finished.
- Account for the queueing, which is the part that surprises people. A lock request that is waiting blocks later requests for conflicting modes behind it rather than letting them overtake, so one long-open transaction holds the DDL and the DDL holds all the traffic. The stall length is set by the longest open transaction, not by the size of the change.
- Confirm on a live system in this order: pg_stat_activity for that table ordered by xact_start, looking for the oldest transaction and specifically for state = idle in transaction; then pg_locks where granted = false to find the waiter; then join them on pid to name blocker and blocked. pg_blocking_pids() does that join for you and is the fastest single call.
- Prevent rather than merely time it better. Set lock_timeout to a second or two on the migration session so the DDL abandons the queue after a bounded wait and is retried, instead of holding it for as long as the oldest transaction lives. Be exact about what that buys: queries arriving during the wait still queue behind the pending ACCESS EXCLUSIVE request, so each attempt costs them up to one lock_timeout of added latency. The outage goes from 40 seconds to about one second per attempt, not to zero. Also run migrations away from deploy-time peaks, and put a statement timeout and an idle-in-transaction timeout on the analytics role that opens the long transactions.
Follow-up
- The same release also wants NOT NULL on that column. What is the sequence that gets there without a long lock?
- Your lock_timeout retry fails ten times in a row because the analytics transaction is always open. What do you change?
Built from the rounds and topics Northern Trust candidates report.
Prepare, practise & reflect
One practical outcome each day. Spend longer where you need it.
0 / 7 done01Map the Northern Trust loop
- Write out the reported sequence: Hackathon, Structured Interviews, Recruiter Screen, Technical Deep-Dives, Final Leadership Round.
- For each round, write one sentence on what it is judging, from the description above, and mark the one you are least ready for.
Deliverable: A one-page map of the 5 reported rounds, with the weakest marked.
02Work System Design
- Spend the session on System Design, which Northern Trust candidates report being tested on.
- Write one worked example in System Design and time yourself on it.
Deliverable: One timed worked example in System Design.
03Work DSA (Data Structures and Algorithms)
- Spend the session on DSA (Data Structures and Algorithms), which Northern Trust candidates report being tested on.
- Write one worked example in DSA (Data Structures and Algorithms) and time yourself on it.
Deliverable: One timed worked example in DSA (Data Structures and Algorithms).
04Work Hackathon Execution
- Spend the session on Hackathon Execution, which Northern Trust candidates report being tested on.
- Write one worked example in Hackathon Execution and time yourself on it.
Deliverable: One timed worked example in Hackathon Execution.
05Answer out loud: Technical & Domain Knowledge
- Answer aloud, timed: Explain the difference between REST APIs and GraphQL in a real-world project.
- Answer aloud, timed: How do you handle concurrency in a high-volume financial application?
Deliverable: Spoken answers to 2 reported Technical & Domain Knowledge question(s), under time.
06Answer out loud: System Design & Architecture
- Answer aloud, timed: Design a Parking Lot system or a similar resource-management application (LLD).
- Answer aloud, timed: How would you design a system to handle high-frequency currency data updates?
Deliverable: Spoken answers to 2 reported System Design & Architecture question(s), under time.
07Answer out loud: Behavioral & Leadership
- Answer aloud, timed: Tell me about a time you had to explain a complex technical issue to a non-technical stakeholder.
- Answer aloud, timed: How do you handle disagreements within your engineering team regarding technical debt?
Deliverable: Spoken answers to 2 reported Behavioral & Leadership question(s), under time.
Expand any day for tasks and deliverables. Your progress is saved on this device.
Behavioural rounds judge the decision you made and what it cost.
How do you handle concurrency in a high-volume financial application?
How do you handle concurrency in a high-volume financial application?
Approach
- Pick a story where you made the decision, not one where you watched it.
- State the situation in two sentences and spend the rest on the reasoning.
- Give the blast radius: what could have broken, and what you measured.
- Name the disagreement and how you resolved it with evidence.
Follow-up
- What would you do differently if you ran that again?
- How did you know your change caused the improvement?
Describe your experience with React and state management in complex web applications.
Describe your experience with React and state management in complex web applications.
Approach
- Pick a story where you made the decision, not one where you watched it.
- State the situation in two sentences and spend the rest on the reasoning.
- Give the blast radius: what could have broken, and what you measured.
- Name the disagreement and how you resolved it with evidence.
Follow-up
- What would you do differently if you ran that again?
- How did you know your change caused the improvement?
Tell me about a time you had to explain a complex technical issue to a non-technical stakeholder.
Tell me about a time you had to explain a complex technical issue to a non-technical stakeholder.
Approach
- Pick a story where you made the decision, not one where you watched it.
- State the situation in two sentences and spend the rest on the reasoning.
- Give the blast radius: what could have broken, and what you measured.
- Name the disagreement and how you resolved it with evidence.
Follow-up
- What would you do differently if you ran that again?
- How did you know your change caused the improvement?
How do you handle disagreements within your engineering team regarding technical debt?
How do you handle disagreements within your engineering team regarding technical debt?
Approach
- Pick a story where you made the decision, not one where you watched it.
- State the situation in two sentences and spend the rest on the reasoning.
- Give the blast radius: what could have broken, and what you measured.
- Name the disagreement and how you resolved it with evidence.
Follow-up
- What would you do differently if you ran that again?
- How did you know your change caused the improvement?
Describe a project where you had to work closely with a client to meet a tight deadline.
Describe a project where you had to work closely with a client to meet a tight deadline.
Approach
- Pick a story where you made the decision, not one where you watched it.
- State the situation in two sentences and spend the rest on the reasoning.
- Give the blast radius: what could have broken, and what you measured.
- Name the disagreement and how you resolved it with evidence.
Follow-up
- What would you do differently if you ran that again?
- How did you know your change caused the improvement?
How do you prioritize tasks when you have multiple competing deadlines?
How do you prioritize tasks when you have multiple competing deadlines?
Approach
- Pick a story where you made the decision, not one where you watched it.
- State the situation in two sentences and spend the rest on the reasoning.
- Give the blast radius: what could have broken, and what you measured.
- Name the disagreement and how you resolved it with evidence.
Follow-up
- What would you do differently if you ran that again?
- How did you know your change caused the improvement?
- 01
How do you handle concurrency in a high-volume financial application?
- 02
Describe your experience with React and state management in complex web applications.
- 03
Tell me about a time you had to explain a complex technical issue to a non-technical stakeholder.
- 04
How do you handle disagreements within your engineering team regarding technical debt?
How long does the interview process typically take?
The timeline varies, but most candidates experience a process spanning 2 to 4 weeks. Some roles may involve a longer wait period between rounds due to team scheduling.
Northern Trust Software Engineer candidate reports ↗Are the technical questions extremely difficult?
Most candidates report that the technical rounds are of easy to moderate difficulty, focusing on practical application rather than obscure, theoretical puzzles.
Northern Trust Software Engineer candidate reports ↗Does Northern Trust value specific certifications?
While not mandatory, certifications in Cloud (Azure/AWS) or Security can be beneficial, especially if your experience level is limited. Always clarify the expectations regarding working hours during your interview, as some support-oriented roles may have non-traditional schedules.
Northern Trust Software Engineer candidate reports ↗What topics does Northern Trust test in interviews?
Northern Trust interviews most often cover SQL, Stakeholder Management, Communication Skills, Requirements Gathering, and System Design. The exact emphasis depends on the specific role you apply for.
Northern Trust Software Engineer candidate reports ↗Sources & methodology 3 sources ↗
No official company page is cited. Rounds and questions come from candidate reports and PracHub editorial material; each source shows the date it was read.
- 01Northern Trust Software Engineer candidate reports ↗
Company-reported rounds, questions and FAQ.
Candidate reports · Accessed 2026-09-22 - 02PracHub Software Engineer practice ↗
PracHub practice material, not company-reported.
PracHub page · Accessed 2026-09-22 - 03PracHub preparation framework ↗
PracHub preparation guidance.
PracHub page · Accessed 2026-09-22
Explore related engineering environments and compare the preparation focus.
Vercel Software Engineer Interview Guide
Debugging practice for Vercel software engineer prep built on a reproduction you trust, narrowing to the smallest failing input, and changing one variable per run so the result stays attributable.
Spotify Software Engineer Interview Guide
Timed practice for Spotify software engineer candidates who lose time to the clock: short problems taken end to end, then reviewed against a written rubric rather than a passing test run.
Shopify Software Engineer Interview Guide
Timed practice for Shopify software engineer candidates who lose time to the clock: short problems taken end to end, then reviewed against a written rubric rather than a passing test run.
Ramp Software Engineer Interview Guide
Systems practice for Ramp software engineer candidates, weighted toward payments and lending work: the load that actually arrives, the failure modes that matter there, and the invariants a partial outage must not break.